Lotus Temple Feedback

Synial

Active Member
Hey guys, just wanted to get a few words in as quickly as possible about Lotus Temple and the surrounding new area while there is hopefully time to make some adjustments (assuming these suggestions match your vision). I feel like you are receptive to feedback and are trying to appeal to some bigger hunters so hopefully this is well recieved.

Warning: Wall of Text Ahead.

I know full playerbase inclusion and an amazing new player / low-level experience are a strong focal point at the moment but I think we all welcome what looks to be an attempt to attract big grinders to your planet(s).

This post is made from the perspective of someone that will cycle ~4-5 million in 2022 and my thoughts on this matter are intentionally and knowingly dismissing the inclusion of players at the low end. I have no issue with development for that portion of the playerbase but the rewards from the Gold Dungeon leads me to contrast the balance of Lotus Temple to Moloch Depths and I will comment on it as such (I don't see the point of including low level players in high-level content if the result is that the loot table is too abysmal to attract players that the gear is intended and balanced for..).

An assumption is also made that MindArk is more mindful of planet partner content ever since the disproportionately balanced armor came out of Cyrene. As such, it is my conclusion that DSEC part 1 has had an understandly poor reception from higher level players because the armor is accessible by those at noob level. Putting on a set of Gremlin and killing caboria at level 1, or throwing on a set of 2000 ped adjusted vigilante and killing otis that can drop armor parts/components that ultimately rival HAZEN from the Sand King is genuinely unacceptable and the drop rate is understandingly and expectedly BAD.

These robots drop the keys to access the instance to acquire the new armor and plate, yet for the stat distrubiton of the items, these monsters are WEAK.

Across the board from Gen 1 - 9 found outside of the temple (NO CHANGES NEEDED TO GOLD INSTANCE LOTUS INVADERS)

Increase stats to increase creature levels
Damage +33%
Health + 20%
Regen 0.25% - 1% per second
Movement Speed +25%
Threat Radius +0%

For reference, there is recent precedence for changing mobs after release - the Molochs were significantly buffed in the patch after they were released (people had already paid a 500 ped entry fee as well).

Other areas of this stature generally have a loot table that is a bit more appealing. Please see the following screenshot (missing over 20k ped of shrapnel - ignore boxes/crackers/loot from toulan creatures found in instances[i.e. hides/parts]). The vast majority of loot is shrapnel (>98% tt value @3.62 DPP, rest is mostly garbage).

lotusloot.png


I do track every area and have loot logs from extensive crystal palace, gorgon wave, and moloch dungeon hunts - so this is written with knowledge of what kind of loot is approved for partners and on calypso in relation to the value of the rare drops available within an area.

Remove all extractors
Rebalance tier components based on new higher danger levels
Add Bio ID Verification (galactica) to lower maturities (1-5)
Add Rad Conveyor (galactica) to higher maturities (6-9)

Instance Piece Distribution:
Black 40%
Blue 30%
Brown 25%
Red 5%

Is it possible to change this and make Lotus Invader the first creature on Toulan to have Tier 4 Codex rewards?

Black: HP +50% / Damage +50%
Blue: Damage +25%
Brown: Damage +10%
Gold: Fine

Remove Individual Key Parts from solo instances - replace with a "solo" gold molten similar to that found in the Team instances that is still only lootable by crown holders.

The current loot pattern leads to a large (wasted) amount of key components being stored (hundreds to thousands of ped in unusable key parts). I can only assume that the undiscovered parts are being controlled by some kind of wave that you have 0 control over and will have a long-term negative impact. If there is some unknown mechanic where maybe only 4 of the 6 pieces can drop on a given day and you need to be running the instances every day, this is only going to lead to people to save their keys and engage with the content on a lesser frequency.. Address this or change it to avoid dead content.

As I had suspected and mentioned in my other post; team instances do not have this issue. This is evidenced by the gold team key that was able to be assembled way too easily - as expected. This ease of access, in my opinion, means that the drop rate in the team instance should be even worse than I expected. This is technically acceptable if the team instance and solo instances do not share the same drop table (meaning - if the team instance is supposed to be so easy to access - don't let that ruin the drop rates in the solo instance which is much harder to access). Team Gold Molten is either way too common or solo pieces are way too rare.

Please remove the need to be "near" or have another person in your team to enter team instances. This just leads to people making inconvenient workarounds.

Will likely post more later but wanted to get as much out as possible due to possible time constraints you might have with the follow-up patch. Really regret not posting after the loot in DSEC part 1 was changed after many complaints from people with ulterior motives that don't even play on the planet... Hopefully this makes a difference.

edit: fixed typo
 
Last edited:

Hally

Well-Known Member
VCAT Team Member
All sounds like good feedback, even if i kinda like the puzzle pieces for the keys :)

One thing thou, is the looting of pieces related to holding a crown or finnishing the mission ?
 

Synial

Active Member
All sounds like good feedback, even if i kinda like the puzzle pieces for the keys :)

One thing thou, is the looting of pieces related to holding a crown or finnishing the mission ?
Guardian Loot

Players who have completed the DSEC Emissary mission
and retrieved the Crown of Sahar have the exclusive ability to loot Golden Key Parts from the Lotus Solo Instances.

From the VU notes ^ bolded the important part.

I don't know what the drop rates for crown stuff look like after this VU but if its the same as it was before and it is still a ~400k cycle (not counting dailies) then that is an effective way for MindArk to actually allow a decent loot table. Higher prereq than Moloch Depths by far.
 

Hally

Well-Known Member
VCAT Team Member
Guardian Loot

Players who have completed the DSEC Emissary mission
and retrieved the Crown of Sahar have the exclusive ability to loot Golden Key Parts from the Lotus Solo Instances.

From the VU notes ^ bolded the important part.

I don't know what the drop rates for crown stuff look like after this VU but if its the same as it was before and it is still a ~400k cycle (not counting dailies) then that is an effective way for MindArk to actually allow a decent loot table. Higher prereq than Moloch Depths by far.
Thanks, that makes it quite clear, sometimes english translates a bit funny in my head, so didnt read the important part :) Thanks for clearing it up.
 

Eugenio Anhithe Wilde

Moon Manager
Staff member
Moderator
Virtualsense Media Team
Hey guys, just wanted to get a few words in as quickly as possible about Lotus Temple and the surrounding new area while there is hopefully time to make some adjustments (assuming these suggestions match your vision). I feel like you are receptive to feedback and are trying to appeal to some bigger hunters so hopefully this is well recieved.

Warning: Wall of Text Ahead.

I know full playerbase inclusion and an amazing new player / low-level experience are a strong focal point at the moment but I think we all welcome what looks to be an attempt to attract big grinders to your planet(s).

This post is made from the perspective of someone that will cycle ~4-5 million in 2022 and my thoughts on this matter are intentionally and knowingly dismissing the inclusion of players at the low end. I have no issue with development for that portion of the playerbase but the rewards from the Gold Dungeon leads me to contrast the balance of Lotus Temple to Moloch Depths and I will comment on it as such (I don't see the point of including low level players in high-level content if the result is that the loot table is too abysmal to attract players that the gear is intended and balanced for..).

An assumption is also made that MindArk is more mindful of planet partner content ever since the disproportionately balanced armor came out of Cyrene. As such, it is my conclusion that DSEC part 1 has had an understandly poor reception from higher level players because the armor is accessible by those at noob level. Putting on a set of Gremlin and killing caboria at level 1, or throwing on a set of 2000 ped adjusted vigilante and killing otis that can drop armor parts/components that ultimately rival HAZEN from the Sand King is genuinely unacceptable and the drop rate is understandingly and expectedly BAD.

These robots drop the keys to access the instance to acquire the new armor and plate, yet for the stat distrubiton of the items, these monsters are WEAK.

Across the board from Gen 1 - 9 found outside of the temple (NO CHANGES NEEDED TO GOLD INSTANCE LOTUS INVADERS)

Increase stats to increase creature levels
Damage +33%
Health + 20%
Regen 0.25% - 1% per second
Movement Speed +25%
Threat Radius +0%

For reference, there is recent precedence for changing mobs after release - the Molochs were significantly buffed in the patch after they were released (people had already paid a 500 ped entry fee as well).

Other areas of this stature generally have a loot table that is a bit more appealing. Please see the following screenshot (missing over 20k ped of shrapnel - ignore boxes/crackers/loot from toulan creatures found in instances[i.e. hides/parts]). The vast majority of loot is shrapnel (>98% tt value @3.62 DPP, rest is mostly garbage).

View attachment 18437

I do track every area and have loot logs from extensive crystal palace, gorgon wave, and moloch dungeon hunts - so this is written with knowledge of what kind of loot is approved for partners and on calypso in relation to the value of the rare drops available within an area.

Remove all extractors
Rebalance tier components based on new higher danger levels
Add Bio ID Verification (galactica) to lower maturities (1-5)
Add Rad Conveyor (galactica) to higher maturities (6-9)

Instance Piece Distribution:
Black 40%
Blue 30%
Brown 25%
Red 5%

Is it possible to change this and make Lotus Invader the first creature on Toulan to have Tier 4 Codex rewards?

Black: HP +50% / Damage +50%
Blue: Damage +25%
Brown: Damage +10%
Gold: Fine

Remove Individual Key Parts from solo instances - replace with a "solo" gold molten similar to that found in the Team instances that is still only lootable by crown holders.

The current loot pattern leads to a large (wasted) amount of key components being stored (hundreds to thousands of ped in unusable key parts). I can only assume that the undiscovered parts are being controlled by some kind of wave that you have 0 control over and will have a long-term negative impact. If there is some unknown mechanic where maybe only 4 of the 6 pieces can drop on a given day and you need to be running the instances every day, this is only going to lead to people to save their keys and engage with the content on a lesser frequency.. Address this or change it to avoid dead content.

As I had suspected and mentioned in my other post; team instances do not have this issue. This is evidenced by the gold team key that was able to be assembled way too easily - as expected. This ease of access, in my opinion, means that the drop rate in the team instance should be even worse than I expected. This is technically acceptable if the team instance and solo instances do not share the same drop table (meaning - if the team instance is supposed to be so easy to access - don't let that ruin the drop rates in the solo instance which is much harder to access). Team Gold Molten is either way too common or solo pieces are way too rare.

Please remove the need to be "near" or have another person in your team to enter team instances. This just leads to people making inconvenient workarounds.

Will likely post more later but wanted to get as much out as possible due to possible time constraints you might have with the follow-up patch. Really regret not posting after the loot in DSEC part 1 was changed after many complaints from people with ulterior motives that don't even play on the planet... Hopefully this makes a difference.

edit: fixed typo
Hey Synial, thanks for taking the time to give your feedback, it is really useful to me and I appreciate it. I am very close to my deadline though and some of this I won't be able to look into because of time restraints (We need to test everything in a very short window otherwise we can introduce unintended bugs).

We are always working towards future releases though and track all feedback so I'm always happy to get everyone's views (good and bad) as ultimately it really helps me to make things better for everyone.
 

Synial

Active Member
Had an idea that could fix the conceptual problem of needing to hit a wave while inside a limited access instance that leaves you with a dead inventory of excess key parts.

Add a simple NPC - working name is Corbite Key Technician. Use whatever fits with lore.

This npc gives a simple prompt and item exchange window that allows you to exchange 50 PED of a single standard key part + 10 PED of shrapnel for a complete solo key. This 10 PED is purely a convenience fee and will be lost as you only receive the 50 PED key in return.

Something simple like:

Hello, %NAME%.

The Corbite Trading Company has been hard at work to gain access to the Lotus Temple.

We have devised a way to smelt bits and bows into material that we can then reconstruct into a fully functional key.


Dialogue Prompt 1: Exchange Lotus Bit Key & Shrapnel
Item Drop Box Requiring 50 Lotus Bit Key (50 PED) + 100,000 Shrapnel (10 PED).

Dialogue Prompt 2: Exchange Lotus Bow Key & Shrapnel
Item Drop Box Requiring 25 Lotus Bow Key (50 PED) + 100,000 Shrapnel (10 PED).

I'm confident a change like this will take this content from the current perception "This looks like Arkadia golden door - I think I will pass" to, "Okay - I want to go do the Toulan Crossover Mission and live on DSEC."
 

Hally

Well-Known Member
VCAT Team Member
Another note, we ran silver yesterday and had 0 gold molten, is that within parameters ? did feel a bit gutted by that ? Also can you make sure that the 6th piece is marked for drop as loot ? i have have 33 of the common ones and between 15 and 1 of the rest, it feels quite asymetrical ? maybe a use for the excess parts?
 

Synial

Active Member
Spent a few hours here today to see if anything had changed. Wanted to get this done ASAP with Mayhem starting tomorrow.

Initial Observations:

Lotus Invaders no longer consistently use their DoT ability.

Loot Table of Lotus Invader has changed drastically - Shrapnel reduced tremendously and replaced with generic oils - Socket Components and Enhancer Components Reduced. Miscellaneous Paint Reduced. Overall markup quality reduced. I will single-handedly be able to produce more than 10% of the corresponding oil sales (daily - universe wide) due to high concentration of oil in loot - actually worse than shrapnel.

Shrapnel34.568%
Animal Muscle Oil20.463%
Animal Eye Oil30.359%
Animal Oil Residue5.844%
Animal Adrenal Oil2.361%
Oil Total
59.028%​
Animal Hide0.039%
Red Key Molten0.139%
Black Key Molten0.067%
Blue Key Molten0.054%
Brown Key Molten0.045%
Christmas Cracker0.128%
Paint Can (Dark Blue)1.134%
Paint Can (Purple)0.022%
Advanced Leather Extractor0.188%
Weak Cloth Extractor0.165%
Strong Cloth Extractor0.127%
Advanced Wood Extractor0.020%
Socket 1 Component1.171%
Socket 3 Component1.218%
Surface Hardener Component0.762%
Rationalizer Component0.139%
Tier 2 Component0.078%

Loot Table inside the instance has changed. Went one instance without getting a single key part. Loot is 99.9%+ shrapnel (this is better than current Lotus Invader Table). Random useless monster parts have been reduced and in some cases eliminated.

Additionally, I noticed mobs are in some cases pulling from an incorrect loot table. Is this why the undiscovered pieces are still not found? See pictures of two separate Sunjoq dropping Dahhar parts. Wave pulling from incorrect table?
sunjoq1.png
sunjoq2.png


I still stand by everything I said within the first feedback post and would additionally amend that if an NPC were added to exchange key parts it allow every key part to be melted down and exchanged for a gold key (not just bits and bows).

Will not be available again until the end of Mayhem to test this again (assume this is the same for other crown holders)... but suffice to say I won't be the guinea pig for many more rounds.

Current assessment is that this will not attract big hunters from elsewhere in the universe that are aware of markup opportunities. Due to lack of loot composition, the cost to play in this instance is currently much higher than various Calypso grinds, CP, Greece, NI & various Cyrene mobs associated with plates.

Definitely has potential - just needs to match or at least come close to the value of other areas. Based on current data I am expecting the cost of play for me here is around +$400-500/month assuming one piece of armor every 3 months.
 

Synial

Active Member
Back with another blog post 😂

I've spent most of my time during mayhem on the toulan/dsec server to keep an eye on who is doing what, and have likewise been tracking cycle of the lotus temple since the VU (easy to accomplish due to forced globals/hofs from loot boxes).

It is very difficult to give feedback on what makes a place good or bad without giving away the secrets of other hunting grounds or getting into loot theory and mechanics..

With that said, it has crossed my mind that one of the biggest challenges for planet partners to get high level players to their planet is to actually have loot that drops or is obtainable through consistent grinding.

If making the majority of your loot not shrapnel (not paying conversion fees) and basically filling the loot table with stuff that is worth practically 0 markup (i.e. so much eye oil that it will be forced to go into the trade terminal) is the way you are able to accomplish that (forcing more deposits), then the loot is actually fine on Elara and in the temple.

The amount of ped you will delete in the process of acquiring the armor (based on current spent cycle and pieces produced); you will play in a forced deficit (after markup, regardless of looter/gear) and lose approximately 5-10k (intentionally not going into specifics on why this range is so large) PED per armor piece. The armor stat budget is set in a way that is very niche and won't have mainstream appeal - I don't think (at least not at that price).

Considering the niche stat budget and 148 total protection found on the armor with alternative options available .. I don't think the current cycle : armor production ratio is off, at all, tbh. Don't think it has a large influence on the overall armor economy or price balance either, so that's good.

My only hesitation to saying "this place is okay", is that I'm not sure if the 3 pieces that have dropped were legitimate drop rates, or if planet partners have the ability to add additional items to the loot pool as a promotional tool to say "hey, this is here, this exists, come get it".

Either way, the forced deficit (majority bad oils/rest shrapnel) won't attract players that only hunt areas that can keep them in the positive, but they will appeal to people that do want this particular mix of protection, for whatever reason. Assuming the production of armor is going to continue as is... I'm sure there are enough people willing to pay (in TT losses) for this armor to make this area a lot more profitable (for virtualsense) than DSEC part 1 and Toulan in general, imo.

TLDR: Could be okay, could be bad. Will give it a fair go when mayhem is over and post again later 😝

edit: still stand by something needing to be done about gold key access from solo instances - those instances are basically like running the team dungeons, except instead of getting gold molten you just get a bunch of materials (with decent ped value) wasting away in your storage (and 0 mirsal).
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom